Need input - buying batteries | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum
Need input - buying batteries | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum
My main goal here is range. I'm not even that concerned about weight. So, with money in my pocket I went shopping and that's when my ideas about what I might purchase completely broke down.
For one, I've looked into building my own packs and given that I'm not doing 72v (or higher) or something specialized or super high end cells or something, I've found it's not cost effective whatsoever to be making my own batteries in this budget range. By the time it's done, I will have spent the same or less on a new and assembled battery. With a warranty.
Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, but unless I'm willing to invest several thousand in aliexpress, I see little gain in building my own. I'd have to be in business it seems for it to be worth that.
I've looked at other places and it's always something. For example, Battery Clearing House looked great, but I hope they know they're getting hammered on shipping. They'd honestly get all of my money if not for the non-competitive shipping rates. I mean is it really $30 to mail a tire? $150 to mail a few flat packs?
So my request is this - what should I get and where? 48v or 52v, range desired, weight not a priority. $600. BatteryHookup are my go-to source for batteries. These guys are super reliable, very competitive on pricing and provide excellent shipping services (I live an ocean away, and they've shipped multiple kW to me quickly and with reasonable prices on several orders)
You didn't specify chemistry/cell-type, so here are a few options for > 48V W (all well below 600$ to leave lots of room for shipping and whatever else you may need):
1. New 35Ah LiFePO4 pouch cells. 70$/4cells, 280$ for nominal 51.2V (16s), totaling a little under w
2. New 3.8Ah LiFePO4 cylindrical cells. 228/120cells and a nominal 48V (15s), totaling a little over w
4. Like-new used 8Ah Lion pouch with holders, bars and screws. 8.5$/2cells. 221$ for nominal 48.1V (13s), totaling a little over w
3. Like-new used 39-41Ah Lion cylindrical cells. 125$/6cells. 250$ for nominal 48V (12s), totaling a little under w
I'm not affiliated with BatteryHookup an any way, just a huge fan.
Here are really nice, compact 44.4v 10ah 444wh modules. These would be perfect for an Ebike. You will have to cut around the lid with a dremel or heat up the glue to pull the lid off. These are made up of 12x 3.7v 10ah cells. They were removed from EV modules that were cycled only a few times. We check for voltage of each module so every module will be good to go. Just add your BMS and you're all set. These can easily handle a 3c discharge as well so they are power modules.
Dimensions: 13" x 7" x 3.5"
Weight: 12 lbs.
$59.99
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-ev-battery-44-4v-10ah-444wh
I have plenty of working batteries right now, but at $60 this looks like an absolute steal.
Probably very durable too once you get it properly set up.
The only "glitch" is you need an ebike with the right place for it. I like this. I like it a lot. Thanks. Still looking at everything. A lot to consider.
location won't be much of a problem with my trailer. If it's starts to get heavy I'll add 20" hub motor to it. Let's be honest I'm gonna end up doing that anyway.
edit-best use for that item would be to remove the 12 cells. So looking at it that way, it's $5/ea used but they are 10AH. Ok looking at the other options so far, and not including BMS or other materials for any of these -
1. Ok this looks fab - > $350shipped for 35AH. What is the caveat to this build? What does this need outside of a BMS and a box to go in? What am I missing with this?
2. This comes out to about $10/AH not including other hardware. Seriously considering these. Plus good to have several for other smaller aplications.
3. This is $143 shipped for 16AH. Lets say 32AH for >$300. This is a bargain!
4. These would need to be 14s meaning 3 lots of 6 for $375 for 41AH. This is a very good deal as well. I like the smaller total number of cells.
Well, I haven't decided 100% yet, but I'm strongly leaning toward #2
metaneuralnetwork said: edit - can I just throw this on the bike trailer? Would that be all right? :lol:
Why not? The price is great. The power is insane.. You will never need that much burst potential and I own those pouch cells in a 12S configuration and can say they will last practically forever.
As long as you properly manage the battery and don't do something really stupid it will last a decade or two.
All the crap you buy that claims to be an ebike battery and they include some cheap Battery Murdering System that destroys your pack in a few months due to extreme retardation in design is all "planned obsolescence".
If you can use your brain to manage the cells manually that's the best way.
All these cells have easy access. You can directly measure and adjust each cell in the series.
If you "Bottom Balanced" once and then set your charger to cut off at 4.1 volts you might literally go years without a problem and never need a Battery Murdering System.
And what you want to do is never allow the cells below 3.2 volts or so and only hit 4.1 volts just before you ride it.
Leave it resting around 3.7 volts most of the time. (all voltage references were "per cell")
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-ev-lithium-ion-12s-44-4v-47ah-2-07kwh-module
In my opinion these are an even better deal if you are going for a trailer battery.
About the same price, but each cell is the full capacity (47 ah) and it's all welded up perfectly so nothing is ever going to get loose over time.
Again you can easily access each cell and manage it.
2 kWh is simply insanely huge for an ebike.
My guess is you could do a hundred miles on a charge pretty easily... enough to be exhausted afterwards.
26 lbs.
metaneuralnetwork said: I saw this one as well and like it a lot BUT it's 44v.
The convention is ## "S" and ## "P".
Series... Parallel.
So this is 12S1P.
Which means since it is Li-ion that:
12 * 4.2 volts = 50.4 volts "peak".
Empty is 12 * 3.0 volts or about 36 volts.
Sometimes they recommend that you don't hit the full 4.2 volts when charging in order to increase battery life.
Most of the time a 12S Li-ion will hang around 44.4 volts as that is 12 * 3.7 volts the "nominal rating".
Occasionally people do 13S (or 14S) just so they exactly center around 48 volts but it's not necessary because all these motors and controllers can tolerate a wide range of input variability.
Voltage sag alone can be several volts.
Also... 50 volts is generally seen as the point when electrocution gets serious. Stay below and it's not likely to kill you if you do something stupid.
I'd say stick to 12S as your maximum.
---------------------------
These modules are beautiful and built like tanks. These were overstock modules not put into vehicles. Each module can easily push 3c or 150a continuous. You have easy access to the busbars to make your BMS balance lead connections. Check out the 2nd and 3rd photos. This is one of the best built batteries we have ever seen. Perfect compression and just built like a tank. Perfect for forklift or golf cart projects. At this price it even makes sense to make a powerwall out of them. Imagine buying 7 modules for over 14kWh powerwall and using one module to add 2 cells to each 12s module. Making 6x 14s 48v modules.
Dimensions: 14" x 6" x 4.5"
Weight: 26 lbs
SafeDiscDancing said:metaneuralnetwork said: I saw this one as well and like it a lot BUT it's 44v.
Occasionally people do 13S (or 14S) just so they exactly center around 48 volts but it's not necessary because all these motors and controllers can tolerate a wide range of input variability.
Voltage sag alone can be several volts.
Right, so running this means undervolting, and it also means using a controller that won't cut off at 42v.
Now if I were running 2x 48v hub motors, that might change things. But as it stands, I think there are some other options that might be more suited to my particular application (which I haven't bothered to explain).
metaneuralnetwork said: Right, so running this means undervolting, and it also means using a controller that won't cut off at 42v.
I basically disabled my low voltage cutoff.
Why?
Because it will not protect your battery "at all" from a low cell and this is most true doing "top balancing".
I have destroyed many cells that way in the past.
This is why wisdom helps in this stuff.
--------------------------
The best way to never have problems ever... ever... ever... is you "bottom balance" once then when you charge you halt the charge when the weakest cell peaks.
All I'm saying is you seem to be chasing things I remember chasing long, long ago.
Remember... 12S is actually 50.4 volts if you charged it fully.
44.4 volts will be your midpoint.
48 volts will be your top 10%.
36 volts will be empty, but with bottom balancing it will NOT cause any damage.
What I'm saying is a bottom balanced battery really cannot be destroyed. And so you don't need or want the controller to cut power at any time because it's another example of bad logic.
When a bottom balanced battery nears empty it pretty much stops delivering power and you "know" it's empty.
The top balanced battery with the cheap Chinese low voltage cutoff is just going to murder your weakest cells.
It's the first of a series of horrific Battery Murdering System problems that get introduced.
metaneuralnetwork said: Matter of fact, I prefer 52v. I'm settling on 48v.
Well just be aware of all the traps I'm "trying" to warn you about.
I have been at this hobby for nearly 20 years and am trying to steer you towards wisdom.
You are entering a kind of minefield of failures and it's still happening.
Higher voltage is always better efficiency wise, so the direction is not bad.
But these 12S packs are probably the best anywhere.
Voltage mostly determines top speed so you must be seeking higher speed?
metaneuralnetwork said: So by wanting a 48v battery I'm walking into a minefield of failures?
Ok.
No. I'm saying "Why" do you want that?
Everything at 12S is very ordinary and common.
Once you get beyond 12S you start needing more rare equipment.
If you are pulling a trailer it seems "odd" that you are obsessed with higher top speed.
How fast are you going to go?
Do you see the contradiction here?
High Voltage ---> High Top Speed
Trailer ----> Low Top Speed Well for reasons sort of already explained.
You know, I didn't realize that trolling was a thing here. I thought the other day someone threw some shade at me for nothing but then they kind of explained it as meaning something else.
Now I got a guy that wants to bust my balls over me wanting a 48v battery. Tells me I'm making all these failures, basically derailing my thread with some ridiculous take.
It's like this man - it's my money. I'm not buying the 44v battery. Get over it.
metaneuralnetwork said: I saw this one as well and like it a lot BUT it's 44v.
Would take some real tinkering and reorganizing to break it all up (bus bars and all) to rearrange it for 48v.
edit - or wait it's 1p so I'd need 2 of them?
Ignore the P count; all that matters to you is the Ah rating.
If your main concern is range, 44V rather than 48V or 52V is actually a good thing. It means your bike will consume less power at cruise speed than if you used higher voltage. I don't know what controller you have, but KT displays let you lower the LVC voltage by up to 2V-- so a 48V controller could be set to LVC at 38V, or 3.17V/cell. Nothing good comes of going lower than that. Even 40V cutoff is 3.33V/cell, which is pretty low.
I use 12S on one of my bikes, and I just received one of those Samsung modules. Haven't cut into it to install the balancer yet. It's a nice compact shape, but quite heavy for its size. Range with 48v or 52v batteries. Not high peak discharge, not number of cycles. Not based on kw/kg.
Range.
I have more than one setup. Much of my arrangement is modular. I want range with 48v or 52v. I never intended to make this a thread about how a turtle can go a thousand miles, and then optimize around that. That's what it got derailed into. I don't know why the topic can't be about 48v and 52v batteries. I didn't come here to talk about changing up my whole setup for something else.
neowizard said: 1. New 35Ah LiFePO4 pouch cells. 70$/4cells, 280$ for nominal 51.2V (16s), totaling a little under w
2. New 3.8Ah LiFePO4 cylindrical cells. 228/120cells and a nominal 48V (15s), totaling a little over w
4. Like-new used 8Ah Lion pouch with holders, bars and screws. 8.5$/2cells. 221$ for nominal 48.1V (13s), totaling a little over w
3. Like-new used 39-41Ah Lion cylindrical cells. 125$/6cells. 250$ for nominal 48V (12s), totaling a little under w
I'm not affiliated with BatteryHookup an any way, just a huge fan.
Thanks for that I'm going with option #2. Also going to get about 50lbs of their parts that should be fun to pick through and have some extra for other things... maybe a longboard next. Just keep in mind that if you're pairing this new battery with your existing one, a different chemistry (or any different properties, really) require more planning.
For instance, LiFePO4 have a VERY stable voltage across most of the charge curve compared with Cobalt Lion. So if you try to power a single motor with two packs the draw characteristics on each pack will not be consistent.
Even if you have to LiFePO4 packs you need to consider their specific characteristics. You want the higher capacity battery to also have higher discharge capacity since at some point the lower-capacity battery will run out and only the second battery will keep on pushing. You might know all this already, but I don't know you, so not assuming anything
Basically, what I'm saying, if you're setting up with two packs, let's discuss the specifics of those packs, BMSs and motor(s).
Best AA Lithium Batteries: Complete Buyer's Guide
Part 1. What is an AA size lithium battery?
A AA size lithium battery is a type of battery with the same dimensions as a standard AA battery but made with lithium chemistry. That means it packs more energy, lasts longer, and handles extreme temperatures better than regular alkaline AA batteries.
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It’s often used in high-drain devices—things that need a lot of power fast. Think digital cameras, GPS devices, or medical equipment.
Part 2. Size and shape
An AA battery is 14.5 mm in diameter and 50.5 mm in length. That’s standard.
So when we say “AA size,” we’re talking about batteries that will fit any device made for standard AA cells. But lithium AA batteries sometimes weigh less, which is a bonus for portable devices.
The shape is the same—cylindrical. So you don’t need to worry about fit.
Part 3. Voltage and capacity
Here’s where things get interesting.
- Non-rechargeable AA lithium batteries usually have 1.5V output.
- Rechargeable lithium AA batteries can be 3.6V or 3.7V, depending on the type.
- Some newer lithium-ion AA batteries are made with built-in voltage regulators to match 1.5V output.
And what about capacity?
- Non-rechargeable AA lithium batteries: 2,700–3,000mAh.
- Rechargeable AA lithium-ion batteries: 600–1,200mAh (they’re smaller due to internal circuits).
Higher voltage means more power. But always check what your device needs before switching.
Part 4. Chemical type
Not all lithium AA batteries are created equal. Here are the main types:
- Li-FeS2 (Lithium Iron Disulfide): These are the most common non-rechargeable AA lithium batteries. They’re great for cameras and cold-weather devices.
- Li-ion (Lithium-ion): Rechargeable and powerful, but typically 3.6V or 3.7V. Use with care in devices not designed for them.
- Li-SOCl2 (Lithium Thionyl Chloride): Used in industrial or IoT applications. Very long shelf life. Usually not for consumer use.
- Li-MnO2 (Lithium Manganese Dioxide): Also found in specialized or high-demand electronics.
So before buying, know the chemistry. It matters.
Part 5. AA size lithium battery cell and pack
You’ll find single-cell AA lithium batteries for most consumer devices.
But for industrial or custom uses, AA-size lithium battery packs are common too. These packs combine several AA cells into a unit—usually wired in series (to increase voltage) or parallel (to increase capacity).
For example, a 4-cell pack might provide 6V total if each cell is 1.5V. Packs can also be custom-built for specific machines or electronics.
Ufine Battery, a leading lithium battery manufacturer in China, specializes in custom lithium battery packs—including AA-size lithium batteries. Whether you need higher voltage, unique connectors, or industrial-grade stability, Ufine offers tailored solutions for your specific needs.
Need custom AA-size lithium batteries? Contact Ufine Battery for a quote.
Part 6. Rechargeable and non-rechargeable AA size lithium batteries
Let’s break down the differences.
Non-Rechargeable (Primary):
- Voltage: 1.5V
- Capacity: 2,700–3,000mAh
- Shelf life: Up to 10 years
- Common brands: Energizer Ultimate Lithium, Duracell Lithium
- Use case: Cameras, flashlights, outdoor devices
Rechargeable (Secondary):
- Voltage: 3.6V or 3.7V (some regulated to 1.5V)
- Capacity: 600–1,200mAh
- Recharge cycles: 500–1,000
- Use case: High-drain electronics, RC toys, medical tools
The Difference Between Primary and Secondary Battery
Rechargeables save money long term but require compatible chargers. Use caution if your device can’t handle higher voltages.
Part 7. AA size lithium battery vs. battery: what’s the difference?
At first glance, AA size lithium batteries and lithium-ion batteries look nearly identical. Both share the same cylindrical shape, and both measure approximately 14.5mm in diameter and 50.5mm in length. So it’s easy to assume they’re interchangeable.
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All About Lithium Rechargeable Battery
But in reality, these two battery types are fundamentally different—and using one in place of the other could damage your device.
Let’s break down the key differences:
1. Voltage Output
- AA lithium batteries (non-rechargeable) typically output 1.5V, just like regular alkaline batteries.
- batteries (rechargeable lithium-ion) usually output 3.6V or 3.7V, which is more than double the voltage of a standard AA.
Why it matters:
If you insert a battery into a device designed for 1.5V AA batteries, you risk overvolting the electronics, which can cause overheating or permanent damage.
2. Rechargeability
- Most AA size lithium batteries on the market are non-rechargeable (like lithium iron disulfide).
- batteries are always rechargeable and behave similarly to lithium-ion cells, just smaller.
Don’t recharge a regular AA lithium battery unless it’s clearly marked as rechargeable. Only cells should be placed in a lithium-ion charger.
3. Application Use Case
- AA lithium batteries are perfect for consumer devices like remote controls, cameras, smoke alarms, and toys that require 1.5V input.
- batteries are more commonly found in flashlights, vape devices, DIY electronics, and IoT systems that are built to handle 3.7V input.
4. Labeling and Safety
Unfortunately, some brands market batteries as “AA lithium” because of the size similarity. But this can be misleading and dangerous. Always check:
- The voltage on the label
- Whether it’s rechargeable
- The capacity (mAh) and chemistry
A true battery will always say 3.6V/3.7V and typically have higher energy output but lower cycle life than standard rechargeable NiMH AAs.
Part 8. How do I know what size lithium battery I need?
Great question! Here’s how:
- Check your device manual. It usually lists battery requirements.
- Look at your current battery. Match the size, voltage, and type.
- Check the voltage range your device can handle. Don’t put a 3.7V battery in a 1.5V-only device!
- Match the chemistry. If your device says use “Li-FeS2”, don’t swap in a Li-ion without checking compatibility.
- For custom electronics, talk to your battery supplier—like Ufine Battery—for expert advice.
Don’t guess. A wrong battery could damage your device.
Part 9. Conclusion: Is AA size lithium battery worth it?
Yes, 100%. If you need reliable power, long life, or lightweight performance, AA size lithium batteries are a solid upgrade from regular AA batteries. They’re ideal for high-drain devices, cold environments, and industrial tools.
Just remember:
- Match the voltage and chemistry.
- Choose rechargeable or non-rechargeable based on your use.
- And if you need something specific? Go custom.
Ufine Battery can help you find or design the perfect lithium battery for your needs. They specialize in custom lithium solutions, including AA size, LiFePO4, , high-rate, and high-temperature batteries.
Contact Ufine Battery today for expert help and a free quote.
Part 10. FAQs
Can I use AA lithium batteries instead of alkaline?
Yes, if your device supports it. Lithium lasts longer and performs better in cold weather. But double-check voltage compatibility.
Are all AA lithium batteries rechargeable?
No. Most AA lithium batteries sold in stores (like Energizer Lithium) are non-rechargeable. Rechargeable lithium-ion AA batteries are a separate category.
Can I charge AA lithium batteries with a regular charger?
Only if they’re rechargeable and the charger is designed for lithium cells. Never charge a non-rechargeable lithium battery. It can be dangerous.
Why are lithium AA batteries more expensive?
They last longer, weigh less, and work in harsh conditions. That added performance comes at a higher upfront cost—but they save money over time.
Where can I buy custom AA size lithium battery packs?
Ufine Battery offers high-quality custom lithium battery solutions, including AA-size cells and packs. You can request custom voltages, capacities, and more.
Are you interested in learning more about plastic prismatic lithium battery cell? Contact us today to secure an expert consultation!
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